Topic-icon WoW: Talent Changes in the Latest Build

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1 year 1 month ago #41417 by Kazara
Kazara created the topic: WoW: Talent Changes in the Latest Build
us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745254501

Hey all.

The last two Beta builds have included a number of changes to talents for many specs, most of which involved rearranging the talent trees, and/or tweaking some talents to be useful in more situations. I'd like to give a little context about those changes, and discuss the further implications of them.

Goals and Obstacles
One of the goals of talents in Legion is to provide more meaningful choice than before, with a focus on customizing your gameplay to suit your tastes. More than ever before, there are options to add or remove complexity, skew what your spec excels at, or opt into alternative rotation styles.

We've moved away from talent rows containing 3 flavors of the same thing, to choices that are impactful in completely different ways. We're not going back on that, but trying out differences as extreme as we were has revealed some new problems. In many cases, the difference between talents was so stark in common situations that it became more of a 'test', and less of a choice.

The Current Situation
There are no hard and fast rules to what makes a good talent row or talent tree, and there are legitimate exceptions to nearly every idea about good talent design, but one of the biggest sticking points is around multi-target damage. Talents can have a huge variety of impacts on damage, falling on a spectrum that ranges from purely increasing single target damage (such as Pyromaniac), to being awesome in mass-AoE but having no value at all against a single target (such as Fire and Brimstone). The majority of talents are somewhere in the middle, offering solid value in most situations.

In many cases, we had talent rows that pitted talents at opposite ends of the spectrum against each other, such as the Arcane level 15 row, where you had the choice of two purely single-target talents against a talent that offered only a little against a single target, but massive value in AoE. This wasn't an interesting choice, it was just a test of whether you could pick the right talent for the situation, and the difference was so strong that you felt punished for having the wrong one.

The Solution and Further Implications
However, we don't want to go back to a world where a talent row is about picking which slightly different flavor of AoE you want. We've opted to rearrange things such that you have more choices that mix generally useful talents vs the more specialized talents. Hopefully that line between the theoretical best talent and the others will be a bit more blurry now, and the talent you do choose won't feel like a wasted talent point in many situations.

As you may have guessed, these changes are going to require a cascade of other related changes, mostly around tuning. Not every talent row is equally valuable (nor are they intended to be), and with new talents competing with each other, adjustments will have to be made. Talents that moved, and their competition, will have to be retuned to become viable choices. Additionally, the overall strength of some specs in common situations will be adjusted to account for talents now offering more or less in those situations. An example of this is Assassination Rogues, whose baseline AoE damage was low, but had an extremely strong AoE talent in Blood Sweat, creating one of those obvious 'test' problem cases. We opted to remove Blood Sweat, adding choice to that talent row, and will be improving their baseline AoE capabilities instead.

We'd love to hear your feedback about these changes, and what you think about talent choices in general at this point. Thanks!

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1 year 1 month ago #41422 by MMO_Doubter
MMO_Doubter replied the topic: WoW: Talent Changes in the Latest Build
Hacks.

"I dont care about "gamers interest", only mine."
- Spathotan. Oct 2, 2011

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1 year 1 month ago #41423 by Kazara
Kazara replied the topic: WoW: Talent Changes in the Latest Build

MMO_Doubter wrote: Hacks.


Any details you would like to share? :lol:

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1 year 1 month ago - 1 year 1 month ago #41425 by MMO_Doubter
MMO_Doubter replied the topic: WoW: Talent Changes in the Latest Build
There are plenty, but I am trying to control my rage.

Suffice it to say that I have seen the method of changing for the sake of change in many idffrent cases in many forms of gaming.

Tabletop RPGs, miniatures gaming, collectible card games. Changing mechanics just enough to justify reselling the same basic material yet again.

Fixing issues that were created by the previous edition, only to bring them back a few editions later.

CCGs putting in broken cards/comboes in one edition and 'fixing them in the next expansion, which breaks other things, which need to be fixed in the next edition.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

WoW was dumbed down terribly in Lich King. Which was fixed in Cataclysm. Which drove away the feeble lametards, who had been drawn in by Lich King. Changing the talent trees and core mechanics with each expansion. Changing the way the game plays just to justify their salaries.

That's off the top of my head.

"I dont care about "gamers interest", only mine."
- Spathotan. Oct 2, 2011
Last Edit: 1 year 1 month ago by MMO_Doubter.

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1 year 1 month ago #41439 by Temploiter
Temploiter replied the topic: WoW: Talent Changes in the Latest Build
At the core of WoW, they have made change for the sake of stringing along their customers and wringing more money from them. Each new 'tier' of gear introduced meant getting back on the treadmill and running another couple hundred miles to again have 'the best'. If it wasn't a tier, it was an expansion or level-increase that would make you get back on the treadmill.

People, when I played, would always say "I don't grind dungeons, I play them, and I enjoy them." I would always counter "then take the gear out of them altogether and just keep the monsters, go in and have fun defeating horrible beasts with your friends, enjoy the comradery!!" That's usually when I'd get banned or a thread locked.

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1 year 1 month ago #41467 by MMO_Doubter
MMO_Doubter replied the topic: WoW: Talent Changes in the Latest Build

Temploiter wrote: At the core of WoW, they have made change for the sake of stringing along their customers and wringing more money from them. Each new 'tier' of gear introduced meant getting back on the treadmill and running another couple hundred miles to again have 'the best'. If it wasn't a tier, it was an expansion or level-increase that would make you get back on the treadmill.

People, when I played, would always say "I don't grind dungeons, I play them, and I enjoy them." I would always counter "then take the gear out of them altogether and just keep the monsters, go in and have fun defeating horrible beasts with your friends, enjoy the comradery!!" That's usually when I'd get banned or a thread locked.


The gear grind is definitely a serious flaw in the genre.I have said for years that each teir ought to have a few dungeons with the same table, so players could choose to run the dungeons that they actually enjoyed. There is simply no need for the many dozens of dungeons in the game.

People can enjoy repeating the same content - since people play chess, bridge, and poker for their whole lives without new content.

The biggest problem is that a dungeon makes itself irrelevant with its own loot drops. One of my most hated aspects of MMOs is 'farm status'.

"I dont care about "gamers interest", only mine."
- Spathotan. Oct 2, 2011

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1 year 1 month ago #41468 by Kazara
Kazara replied the topic: WoW: Talent Changes in the Latest Build
Doing a particular dungeon grind can get old, but some dungeon drops can make it worthwhile. In SWG, the components to make awesome weapons (Acklay bones for example) makes it definitely an advantageous and/or profitable adventure - - you couldn't predict what kind of stats or how many you would get. On the way to beat down Acklay, you would/could pick up other valuable weaponsmith crafting goods within the dungeon.

Sadly, in SWGEmu it is heavily AFK camped (as other notable POIs are for significant loot), so usually the same groups/guilds monopolize the loot drops.

I never could get into gear grinds for the most part in theme park games. I usually hit level cap and move on to the next game. I don't care for repetitive raid grinds that are often taken way too seriously.

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1 year 1 month ago #41471 by MMO_Doubter
MMO_Doubter replied the topic: WoW: Talent Changes in the Latest Build
My favourite MMO content was server-wide events like th AQ gate opening in Vanilla.

The resource accumulation and the faction teaming up during the bug invasion was fun as hell. Even though I refused to ever group with gnomes.

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- Spathotan. Oct 2, 2011

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1 year 1 month ago #41474 by Temploiter
Temploiter replied the topic: WoW: Talent Changes in the Latest Build
Kaz, those grinds were different in that they were, originally, decaying resources... once placed in an item. So, you'd have to go back and get them again (or pay somebody to.

MMO_D, another thing is they make older dungeons never worth doing... it seems dumb to me to waste all of that time creating content and then to only make your own efforts obsolete in a few months.

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1 year 1 month ago - 1 year 1 month ago #41476 by MMO_Doubter
MMO_Doubter replied the topic: WoW: Talent Changes in the Latest Build

Temploiter wrote: Kaz, those grinds were different in that they were, originally, decaying resources... once placed in an item. So, you'd have to go back and get them again (or pay somebody to.

MMO_D, another thing is they make older dungeons never worth doing... it seems dumb to me to waste all of that time creating content and then to only make your own efforts obsolete in a few months.



Yup. I used to reroll alts just to play favourite areas like Rage Fire Chasm and Ungoro Gorge (DINOSAURS!)

I used to hunt out new servers to replay that AQ opening content.

"I dont care about "gamers interest", only mine."
- Spathotan. Oct 2, 2011
Last Edit: 1 year 1 month ago by MMO_Doubter.

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